Funny you mention this because I was about to bring it up but as a bad thing. They don’t care about Jesus or his teachings or any of that because they see the whole “all of your sins will be forgiven” as “I can do whatever I want and then just have to tell a priest about it before I die and then I get into heaven”. Why they think they can pull a fast one on a being they believe is omniscient is beyond me, best guess is maybe they have a really simplistic view of rules and think exploiting loopholes can be done in good faith?
The Bible actually has things to say about that mindset. Namely, if you think “I can go back to sin and just get forgiven afterwards no biggie,” and then do so, you’re not going to get forgiven (Hebrews 10.) But that doesn’t get preached much, probably because it’s easy to get it twisted and think that an inadvertent slip into sin will have the same effect.
The older I get, the more dangerous I see Calvinism as being. Mind you, I believe it is true, but I see why it is difficult to explain. The child-like laws, given to literal children, seem to me to be a way of gently guiding people into the deeper waters. Unfortunately some people refuse to ever grow up, not just in Christianity but in every single aspect of life. It is so much easier to just play make-believe and spare people’s feelings (namely, probably the people doing that are attempting to spare their own). We are wounded, due to the effects of sin, and then for lack of knowledge the people perish.
The very surface level of Calvinism, being that God is sovereign in all, is something I agree with, but it includes predestination, which is where I take issue. Why would God not offer the same mercy to everyone? And when He does offer mercy to someone, why would He not let us choose? He is sovereign, yes, but He is also loving, and love is not forcing some people to become model citizens while letting others perish without ever having any hope of salvation.
I do believe predestination is technically true in that God already knows the future and knows who will or won’t ultimately be saved, but that doesn’t preclude free will being an operative part of what gets us there.
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Like an author who makes both villains and heroes, and normies too I suppose… maybe, for the sake of the particular flavor of spice that they choose.
And Hebrews 10 also tells a bit of the story: God offers the entire world His son, and refusing that just might leave someone hopeless. Like an infant who died at birth, it’s sad but you don’t keep it in the house, give it the room and perhaps even college fund that you prepared in advance for it. It’s not its’ fault, but it’s dead so… you put it outside like trash (special trash, with a ceremony, but not like a “family member”, who gets to stay inside the house and be fed and can play with toys and such).
Setting blame aside, something either produces fruit or it doesn’t, period. When you turn on your computer, you expect it to work, not ignore you, and if it doesn’t, then after all the attempts to fix it yield no results, you throw it out and get a new one that will. All this is what we already do, here and now. Whatever He does… could very well be similar? Or not, but I have no problems with the idea that he would let some computer programsfictional characters human beings be discarded forever. The creator gets to decide, it has nothing to do with “fair”, it’s just what is.
But honestly I have no idea, beyond that it’s possible:-).
I think we’re in agreement here. God gives us chances to bear fruit, but throws out the branches that don’t. Predestination, as Calvinism describes it, says that He decides in advance whether they’re going to bear fruit, and those He wants to bear fruit do, and those He doesn’t never get the chance. I do not see that lining up with the idea that God is all-loving.
That being said, the Bible does say that nobody can come to Christ without God’s call, so I can see how that could be seen as predestination, but there have been those who felt the call and turned away, some of whom came around later. I think in some manner, it might be a warning that you can’t just decide “I’ll get saved when it’s more convenient for me,” because God doesn’t call at your convenience.
From our perspective, we’ll never know if we are predestined or not, so it’s functionally the same thing as free will. On the other hand, to the extent that we may have that, we would need to bow to His will, not force forward our own, as in if He wants a mountain to move, then we can pray and it will, but if He did not, then no amount of asking would work.
Indeed. Though that’s not to say asking is useless. He knows what we need, but often entrusts us to ask for it, so that we can see the answered prayers instead of taking Him for granted (plus some other reasons probably.)
Funny you mention this because I was about to bring it up but as a bad thing. They don’t care about Jesus or his teachings or any of that because they see the whole “all of your sins will be forgiven” as “I can do whatever I want and then just have to tell a priest about it before I die and then I get into heaven”. Why they think they can pull a fast one on a being they believe is omniscient is beyond me, best guess is maybe they have a really simplistic view of rules and think exploiting loopholes can be done in good faith?
Studies in chimpanzees reveal that they do the same thing. It’s not even just “human nature”, it’s nature itself, pure and simple.
We should ride above that. We won’t, but we should.:-)
The Bible actually has things to say about that mindset. Namely, if you think “I can go back to sin and just get forgiven afterwards no biggie,” and then do so, you’re not going to get forgiven (Hebrews 10.) But that doesn’t get preached much, probably because it’s easy to get it twisted and think that an inadvertent slip into sin will have the same effect.
The older I get, the more dangerous I see Calvinism as being. Mind you, I believe it is true, but I see why it is difficult to explain. The child-like laws, given to literal children, seem to me to be a way of gently guiding people into the deeper waters. Unfortunately some people refuse to ever grow up, not just in Christianity but in every single aspect of life. It is so much easier to just play make-believe and spare people’s feelings (namely, probably the people doing that are attempting to spare their own). We are wounded, due to the effects of sin, and then for lack of knowledge the people perish.
The very surface level of Calvinism, being that God is sovereign in all, is something I agree with, but it includes predestination, which is where I take issue. Why would God not offer the same mercy to everyone? And when He does offer mercy to someone, why would He not let us choose? He is sovereign, yes, but He is also loving, and love is not forcing some people to become model citizens while letting others perish without ever having any hope of salvation.
I do believe predestination is technically true in that God already knows the future and knows who will or won’t ultimately be saved, but that doesn’t preclude free will being an operative part of what gets us there.
Romans 9:22 gives one possible answer to that:
Like an author who makes both villains and heroes, and normies too I suppose… maybe, for the sake of the particular flavor of spice that they choose.
And Hebrews 10 also tells a bit of the story: God offers the entire world His son, and refusing that just might leave someone hopeless. Like an infant who died at birth, it’s sad but you don’t keep it in the house, give it the room and perhaps even college fund that you prepared in advance for it. It’s not its’ fault, but it’s dead so… you put it outside like trash (special trash, with a ceremony, but not like a “family member”, who gets to stay inside the house and be fed and can play with toys and such).
Setting blame aside, something either produces fruit or it doesn’t, period. When you turn on your computer, you expect it to work, not ignore you, and if it doesn’t, then after all the attempts to fix it yield no results, you throw it out and get a new one that will. All this is what we already do, here and now. Whatever He does… could very well be similar? Or not, but I have no problems with the idea that he would let some
computer programsfictional charactershuman beings be discarded forever. The creator gets to decide, it has nothing to do with “fair”, it’s just what is.But honestly I have no idea, beyond that it’s possible:-).
I think we’re in agreement here. God gives us chances to bear fruit, but throws out the branches that don’t. Predestination, as Calvinism describes it, says that He decides in advance whether they’re going to bear fruit, and those He wants to bear fruit do, and those He doesn’t never get the chance. I do not see that lining up with the idea that God is all-loving.
That being said, the Bible does say that nobody can come to Christ without God’s call, so I can see how that could be seen as predestination, but there have been those who felt the call and turned away, some of whom came around later. I think in some manner, it might be a warning that you can’t just decide “I’ll get saved when it’s more convenient for me,” because God doesn’t call at your convenience.
From our perspective, we’ll never know if we are predestined or not, so it’s functionally the same thing as free will. On the other hand, to the extent that we may have that, we would need to bow to His will, not force forward our own, as in if He wants a mountain to move, then we can pray and it will, but if He did not, then no amount of asking would work.
Indeed. Though that’s not to say asking is useless. He knows what we need, but often entrusts us to ask for it, so that we can see the answered prayers instead of taking Him for granted (plus some other reasons probably.)