Surrender is out of the question for Ukraine. Russia has shown from the first day of the invasion on, that this war is as much a land grab, as it is a punishment for not being Russian enough.
Russia has been grinding for years now with only miniscule wins, while Ukraine has made some very successful counter offensives. Ukraine simply has the better army. Whether they can win back their territory depends on international support. But even if that fades, I don’t see a scenario in which they just give up. And Russia will only give them an acceptable peace deal if Putin fears for his power or has been removed. This is in part why they launched the Kursk offensive. They need to pressure Putin or continue grinding.
Also: Holding Russian land is maybe the best bargaining chip they have for future negotiations.
Surrender is out of the question for Ukraine. Russia has shown from the first day of the invasion on, that this war is as much a land grab, as it is a punishment for not being Russian enough.
What? From day 1, Russia has made it clear that it wants to grab the contested territories, and demilitarize Ukraine as a consequence of unimpeded NATO expansion. NATO has ignored Russia’s demands and pressed further.
Russia has been grinding for years now with only miniscule wins, while Ukraine has made some very successful counter offensives.
Slow and steady wins are wins. Ukraine hasn’t managed to turn the tide.
Ukraine simply has the better army.
With respect to what?
Whether they can win back their territory depends on international support. But even if that fades, I don’t see a scenario in which they just give up.
You’re saying Ukraine will fight to their last breath? The war is becoming increasingly unpopular as time goes on, do you expect this trend to reverse at some point?
And Russia will only give them an acceptable peace deal if Putin fears for his power or has been removed. This is in part why they launched the Kursk offensive. They need to pressure Putin or continue grinding.
Acceptable to who? You? Wouldn’t any agreed upon peace-deal be acceptable?
Also: Holding Russian land is maybe the best bargaining chip they have for future negotiations.
Can they hold it? It seems Kursk is taking away from Ukraine’s ability to hold onto key territory.
This is going to be my last message since your last message has made it clear to me that you believe in Russian propaganda and I don’t care debating with you about lies.
From day 1, Russia has made it clear that it wants to grab the contested territories, and demilitarize Ukraine as a consequence of unimpeded NATO expansion. NATO has ignored Russia’s demands and pressed further.
NATO didn’t press eastwards. It welcomed countries that wanted to join because they felt threatened. And it is obvious now that they were right to be scared. Russia demands a sphere of influence. But this is unacceptable for its neighbors. Russia is a colonial empire that can only think in these terms. That’s why they believe that these countries that want to join NATO don’t have a will of their own and are US puppets. Which makes them fair game. This is not only wrong but also inhumane. It takes away the people’s dignity and their right for peace.
And for the love of God. Don’t forget the war crimes committed by Russian soldiers on a systematic and large scale. Mass executions, torture, rape, etc. Those weren’t isolated incidents, they were part of the plan. And Putin himself handed out medals for the commanders of the most notorious units.
Slow and steady wins are wins
That’s the point. Since the run on Kiev the russians have lost far more territory than they gained.
With respect to what?
With respect to the Russians. Given the Ukrainian wins, they are clearly doing a better job than the Russians.
You’re saying Ukraine will fight to their last breath? The war is becoming increasingly unpopular as time goes on, do you expect this trend to reverse at some point?
I’m saying they won’t accept a deal in which Ukraine becomes demilitarized and at Russia’s mercy. And that’s the only deal the Russians are offering right now. Even if they lose the resources to launch offensives, they will dig in and defend as long as they can. And this might go on not for years, but decades.
Wouldn’t any agreed upon peace-deal be acceptable?
Again, the only deal Russia is willing to give Ukraine at the moment is equal to unconditional surrender. That’s not a peace deal. It’s a farce.
Can they hold it? It seems Kursk is taking away from Ukraine’s ability to hold onto key territory.
That remains to be seen. It’s also taking away from Russia’s ability to attack in those other regions. Also, this attack shows that Russia has been concentrating its troops on the active front (probably because they felt safe because of western weapon restrictions). Russia was enjoying an asymmetrical advantage. Ukraine took that away.
NATO didn’t press eastwards. It welcomed countries that wanted to join because they felt threatened. And it is obvious now that they were right to be scared. Russia demands a sphere of influence. But this is unacceptable for its neighbors. Russia is a colonial empire that can only think in these terms. That’s why they believe that these countries that want to join NATO don’t have a will of their own and are US puppets. Which makes them fair game. This is not only wrong but also inhumane. It takes away the people’s dignity and their right for peace.
NATO was formed to be anti-Russia, and has continued to expand eastward against formalized warnings from Russia. NATO itself said that the cause of war was Putin’s fear of Ukraine also joining NATO. Was NATO lying?
And for the love of God. Don’t forget the war crimes committed by Russian soldiers on a systematic and large scale. Mass executions, torture, rape, etc. Those weren’t isolated incidents, they were part of the plan. And Putin himself handed out medals for the commanders of the most notorious units.
Russia is in many ways an evil bourgeois dictatorship, but you seem to be brushing Ukranian shelling of pro-Russian territories within Ukraine, and Ukranian warcrimes including mass executions, torture, and rape as well. Russia is not absolved of their crimes, and neither is Ukraine.
With respect to the Russians. Given the Ukrainian wins, they are clearly doing a better job than the Russians.
Given that Ukraine is losing, they are clearly better than the Russians. What?
I asked in what manner is the Ukranian military better, materially. Is it vibes?
I’m saying they won’t accept a deal in which Ukraine becomes demilitarized and at Russia’s mercy. And that’s the only deal the Russians are offering right now. Even if they lose the resources to launch offensives, they will dig in and defend as long as they can. And this might go on not for years, but decades.
What choice will they have? They are continuing to lose capable fighters and resources.
Again, the only deal Russia is willing to give Ukraine at the moment is equal to unconditional surrender. That’s not a peace deal. It’s a farce.
Again, does Ukraine have any choice in the future? Where is the path to victory? Seems like you just want to send Ukranians to their deaths.
That remains to be seen. It’s also taking away from Russia’s ability to attack in those other regions. Also, this attack shows that Russia has been concentrating its troops on the active front (probably because they felt safe because of western weapon restrictions). Russia was enjoying an asymmetrical advantage. Ukraine took that away.
So as Russia continues to advance and Kursk falls back to Russian hands, you’ll applaud this grand show of virtue signaling?
Mate don’t bother. Lemmy.ml believes Russia to be invincible, whatever reality says. It’s just for some weird reason they’re allowing the war to drag on instead of just smashing Ukraine.
I’ve tried reason about this before but they just don’t care.
Buddy, even mainstream western media no longer believes Ukraine can win this war. The “weird” reason for fighting a war of attrition is to avoid taking massive losses the way Ukraine did during their fabled offensive last year. Maybe before trying to “reason” with people you should spend a modicum of time to actually understand the subject yourself.
Buddy, I bet not. But it’s no competition. I asked because that’s not what mainstream media is saying at all. Or to be fair, I don’t know what country you live in, maybe they’re producing that image.
It’s pretty funny how you expose yourself as a liar here because it’s very much what mainstream media is saying across the west. Here’s a sample for you so you can educate yourself on what the media in the west is saying:
It’s just for some weird reason they’re allowing the war to drag on instead of just smashing Ukraine.
So weird they’re happy to sit in their unassailable fortifications depopulating the enemy military instead of going on the offensive and taking unnecessary casualties now that they’ve achieved their territorial goals. I am a very intelligent person (you can tell by my smug affect) and I just can’t put together a rational motivation for this.
The CIA since the start of the war has assessed that Russia posseses neither the intention nor the capability to take and hold Ukraine. So the fact that you think Russia has shown since day 1 that it’s a land grab is not supported by anything except the propaganda you latched onto and won’t let get of despite all evidence.
Second, it has made very clear that it’s fundamental concern is not Russian-ness but NATO deployments. When a country joins NATO they give over land, rights, and money to a nuclear transnational military with zero accountability to any voting population. NATO uses that land, those rights, and that money to build nuclear first-strike capabilities which amount to shortest-flight launch positions, anti-missile capabilities along retaliation paths, and forward-deployed detection/recon/Intel. These capabilities fundamentally undermine MAD and are inline with US war hawk positions that the USA should demonstrate it can win a nuclear war.
But that’s just the nuclear problem. NATO also builds supply chains, logistics, barracks, armories, air bases, training facilities, command centers, and other capabilities in this territory ceded by the countries that join. That network puts to shame the networks built by the likes of Napoleon’s empire or Hitler’s Third Reich, because those networks needed to be built mid-invasion. NATO gets to build during relative peace time in countries that are under the influence of the economic and political hegemony who deploys soft and hard power to get their way.
But none of this matters if NATO is purely defensive, like their doctrine says. Well that doctrine went out the window almost immediately after the USSR was dismantled when Bill Clinton sent NATO to bomb Yugoslavia. You can try to make the case the world’s first ever war for humanitarian intervention was in fact a defensive humanitarian intervention, but you all need to explain why NATO dropped depleted uranium bombs in densely populated urban areas. They launched a war of aggression in everything but rhetoric.
And that same guy, Clinton, who oversaw this atrocity of aggression by NATO (the defensive pact) also was negotiating with the new Russian Federation about NATO expansion. Russia stated back in 1992 that NATO in Ukraine was a redline. Clinton agreed. Then, the same year, directed his team to begin getting plans together to bring Ukraine into NATO. The duplicity is a matter of record. “But”, I hear you say, “why should Russia be able to dictate who can and can’t join NATO”. Great question!
You’ll have heard by now that Ukraine is of strategic importance to Russia. Specifically, the land of Ukraine acts as a buffer for Russia’s strategic interests. Why should we believe Russia? We don’t have to. We can just look at history.
The last 2 times Russia was invaded, they lost millions of people. Both of those invasions were by the dominant European power of the day. First it was Emperor Napoleon, who marched across Europe, building supply chains and logistics to manage his army as they invaded Russia in what is known historically as one of the bloodiest campaigns in history. Then it was Hitler and Third Reich fielding the world’s most advanced military and most advanced tactics building their supply chains and logistics across Europe to manage their army as they invaded Russia. Again, millions of Russians died.
Where did these 2 great invasions happen? Across the border with Ukraine. We don’t have to believe Russia. Western Europe has demonstrated that Ukraine is strategically necessary to invade Russia. Controlling a well supplied military at the Ukrainian border with Russia is how Western Europe invades Russia.
So when the US uses NATO to build supply chains and logistics to field the world’s most advanced nuclear military WITH A SEPARATE COMMAND STRUCTURE UNACCOUNTABLE TO ANY NATION’S PEOPLE at the border of Ukraine and Russia, it is pretty fucking clear what is happening. And when that army has a doctrine of “defense only” and then proceeds to drop DU from bombers onto an urban European country during an internal conflict that did not trigger the mutual defense clause, and then proceeds to engage in wars outside it’s doctrine like demolishing Libya or supporting the US occupation of Afghanistan, no amount of liberal whining that NATO is defensive is going to matter.
No military would ever allow the border over which it was invaded twice and lost millions of people over to become the location that its geopolitical rival builds a fully supplied, trained, staffed, and supported nuclear military presence. No country in the world would allow this.
So, at this point, you either need to deal with reality or suck your head back up your ass and live in your delusional world.
Then we could talk about the delusion of Ukraine having the superior military. But not until you give up the delusion of history.
Surrender is out of the question for Ukraine. Russia has shown from the first day of the invasion on, that this war is as much a land grab, as it is a punishment for not being Russian enough.
Russia has been grinding for years now with only miniscule wins, while Ukraine has made some very successful counter offensives. Ukraine simply has the better army. Whether they can win back their territory depends on international support. But even if that fades, I don’t see a scenario in which they just give up. And Russia will only give them an acceptable peace deal if Putin fears for his power or has been removed. This is in part why they launched the Kursk offensive. They need to pressure Putin or continue grinding.
Also: Holding Russian land is maybe the best bargaining chip they have for future negotiations.
What? From day 1, Russia has made it clear that it wants to grab the contested territories, and demilitarize Ukraine as a consequence of unimpeded NATO expansion. NATO has ignored Russia’s demands and pressed further.
Slow and steady wins are wins. Ukraine hasn’t managed to turn the tide.
With respect to what?
You’re saying Ukraine will fight to their last breath? The war is becoming increasingly unpopular as time goes on, do you expect this trend to reverse at some point?
Acceptable to who? You? Wouldn’t any agreed upon peace-deal be acceptable?
Can they hold it? It seems Kursk is taking away from Ukraine’s ability to hold onto key territory.
This is going to be my last message since your last message has made it clear to me that you believe in Russian propaganda and I don’t care debating with you about lies.
NATO didn’t press eastwards. It welcomed countries that wanted to join because they felt threatened. And it is obvious now that they were right to be scared. Russia demands a sphere of influence. But this is unacceptable for its neighbors. Russia is a colonial empire that can only think in these terms. That’s why they believe that these countries that want to join NATO don’t have a will of their own and are US puppets. Which makes them fair game. This is not only wrong but also inhumane. It takes away the people’s dignity and their right for peace.
And for the love of God. Don’t forget the war crimes committed by Russian soldiers on a systematic and large scale. Mass executions, torture, rape, etc. Those weren’t isolated incidents, they were part of the plan. And Putin himself handed out medals for the commanders of the most notorious units.
That’s the point. Since the run on Kiev the russians have lost far more territory than they gained.
With respect to the Russians. Given the Ukrainian wins, they are clearly doing a better job than the Russians.
I’m saying they won’t accept a deal in which Ukraine becomes demilitarized and at Russia’s mercy. And that’s the only deal the Russians are offering right now. Even if they lose the resources to launch offensives, they will dig in and defend as long as they can. And this might go on not for years, but decades.
Again, the only deal Russia is willing to give Ukraine at the moment is equal to unconditional surrender. That’s not a peace deal. It’s a farce.
That remains to be seen. It’s also taking away from Russia’s ability to attack in those other regions. Also, this attack shows that Russia has been concentrating its troops on the active front (probably because they felt safe because of western weapon restrictions). Russia was enjoying an asymmetrical advantage. Ukraine took that away.
NATO was formed to be anti-Russia, and has continued to expand eastward against formalized warnings from Russia. NATO itself said that the cause of war was Putin’s fear of Ukraine also joining NATO. Was NATO lying?
Russia is in many ways an evil bourgeois dictatorship, but you seem to be brushing Ukranian shelling of pro-Russian territories within Ukraine, and Ukranian warcrimes including mass executions, torture, and rape as well. Russia is not absolved of their crimes, and neither is Ukraine.
Given that Ukraine is losing, they are clearly better than the Russians. What?
I asked in what manner is the Ukranian military better, materially. Is it vibes?
What choice will they have? They are continuing to lose capable fighters and resources.
Again, does Ukraine have any choice in the future? Where is the path to victory? Seems like you just want to send Ukranians to their deaths.
So as Russia continues to advance and Kursk falls back to Russian hands, you’ll applaud this grand show of virtue signaling?
Mate don’t bother. Lemmy.ml believes Russia to be invincible, whatever reality says. It’s just for some weird reason they’re allowing the war to drag on instead of just smashing Ukraine.
I’ve tried reason about this before but they just don’t care.
Buddy, even mainstream western media no longer believes Ukraine can win this war. The “weird” reason for fighting a war of attrition is to avoid taking massive losses the way Ukraine did during their fabled offensive last year. Maybe before trying to “reason” with people you should spend a modicum of time to actually understand the subject yourself.
Friend, you do not read mainstream media, do you?
Friend, I bet I read a lot more mainstream media than you do.
Buddy, I bet not. But it’s no competition. I asked because that’s not what mainstream media is saying at all. Or to be fair, I don’t know what country you live in, maybe they’re producing that image.
It’s pretty funny how you expose yourself as a liar here because it’s very much what mainstream media is saying across the west. Here’s a sample for you so you can educate yourself on what the media in the west is saying:
So weird they’re happy to sit in their unassailable fortifications depopulating the enemy military instead of going on the offensive and taking unnecessary casualties now that they’ve achieved their territorial goals. I am a very intelligent person (you can tell by my smug affect) and I just can’t put together a rational motivation for this.
Holy shit you’re delusional.
The CIA since the start of the war has assessed that Russia posseses neither the intention nor the capability to take and hold Ukraine. So the fact that you think Russia has shown since day 1 that it’s a land grab is not supported by anything except the propaganda you latched onto and won’t let get of despite all evidence.
Second, it has made very clear that it’s fundamental concern is not Russian-ness but NATO deployments. When a country joins NATO they give over land, rights, and money to a nuclear transnational military with zero accountability to any voting population. NATO uses that land, those rights, and that money to build nuclear first-strike capabilities which amount to shortest-flight launch positions, anti-missile capabilities along retaliation paths, and forward-deployed detection/recon/Intel. These capabilities fundamentally undermine MAD and are inline with US war hawk positions that the USA should demonstrate it can win a nuclear war.
But that’s just the nuclear problem. NATO also builds supply chains, logistics, barracks, armories, air bases, training facilities, command centers, and other capabilities in this territory ceded by the countries that join. That network puts to shame the networks built by the likes of Napoleon’s empire or Hitler’s Third Reich, because those networks needed to be built mid-invasion. NATO gets to build during relative peace time in countries that are under the influence of the economic and political hegemony who deploys soft and hard power to get their way.
But none of this matters if NATO is purely defensive, like their doctrine says. Well that doctrine went out the window almost immediately after the USSR was dismantled when Bill Clinton sent NATO to bomb Yugoslavia. You can try to make the case the world’s first ever war for humanitarian intervention was in fact a defensive humanitarian intervention, but you all need to explain why NATO dropped depleted uranium bombs in densely populated urban areas. They launched a war of aggression in everything but rhetoric.
And that same guy, Clinton, who oversaw this atrocity of aggression by NATO (the defensive pact) also was negotiating with the new Russian Federation about NATO expansion. Russia stated back in 1992 that NATO in Ukraine was a redline. Clinton agreed. Then, the same year, directed his team to begin getting plans together to bring Ukraine into NATO. The duplicity is a matter of record. “But”, I hear you say, “why should Russia be able to dictate who can and can’t join NATO”. Great question!
You’ll have heard by now that Ukraine is of strategic importance to Russia. Specifically, the land of Ukraine acts as a buffer for Russia’s strategic interests. Why should we believe Russia? We don’t have to. We can just look at history.
The last 2 times Russia was invaded, they lost millions of people. Both of those invasions were by the dominant European power of the day. First it was Emperor Napoleon, who marched across Europe, building supply chains and logistics to manage his army as they invaded Russia in what is known historically as one of the bloodiest campaigns in history. Then it was Hitler and Third Reich fielding the world’s most advanced military and most advanced tactics building their supply chains and logistics across Europe to manage their army as they invaded Russia. Again, millions of Russians died.
Where did these 2 great invasions happen? Across the border with Ukraine. We don’t have to believe Russia. Western Europe has demonstrated that Ukraine is strategically necessary to invade Russia. Controlling a well supplied military at the Ukrainian border with Russia is how Western Europe invades Russia.
So when the US uses NATO to build supply chains and logistics to field the world’s most advanced nuclear military WITH A SEPARATE COMMAND STRUCTURE UNACCOUNTABLE TO ANY NATION’S PEOPLE at the border of Ukraine and Russia, it is pretty fucking clear what is happening. And when that army has a doctrine of “defense only” and then proceeds to drop DU from bombers onto an urban European country during an internal conflict that did not trigger the mutual defense clause, and then proceeds to engage in wars outside it’s doctrine like demolishing Libya or supporting the US occupation of Afghanistan, no amount of liberal whining that NATO is defensive is going to matter.
No military would ever allow the border over which it was invaded twice and lost millions of people over to become the location that its geopolitical rival builds a fully supplied, trained, staffed, and supported nuclear military presence. No country in the world would allow this.
So, at this point, you either need to deal with reality or suck your head back up your ass and live in your delusional world.
Then we could talk about the delusion of Ukraine having the superior military. But not until you give up the delusion of history.